This is a two-part transcript of a SW Radio Africa Hotseat Interview between ‘Hot Seat’ journalist Violet Gonda, and Raymond Majongwe of the Progressive Teachers Union of Zimbabwe, David Coltart of the Mutambara MDC, and lawyer Arnold Tsunga

Part 1: Broadcast 20 February 2007

Violet Gonda: Zimbabwe has been witnessing a wave of strikes by many groups including junior doctors and teachers demanding better working conditions in a country which now has the highest inflation rate in the world and the fastest shrinking economy outside a war zone. The country has also been seeing a spate of spontaneous demonstrations from several pressure groups and the opposition. To discuss the issue of the growing discontent within society, we welcome on the programme ‘Hot Seat’ Raymond Majongwe who is the Secretary General of the Progressive Teachers Union of

Zimbabwe, David Coltart, a legal expert and member of the Mutambara MDC and Arnold Tsunga, the Director of the Zimbabwe Lawyers for Human Rights. Welcome on the programme.

All: Thank you Violet. Good evening Violet. Thank you.

Violet: Now let me start with Raymond Majongwe, what are your thoughts on the clashes between the police and the people this past week?

Raymond Majongwe : Apparently I think nobody must apologise. People in Zimbabwe are demanding their space back that has been taken over by both the politicians as well as the Military and the Police. And, if we really sit down on our laurels and think that we will be able to reclaim that space without blood, without sweat, then we will be fooling ourselves.

Violet: Now, we have also seen scores of people getting arrested for exercising their rights. We have seen MDC supporters, WOZA activists, NCA, Students, now, is it not also the case that you were arrested about a week ago for saying teachers earn the equivalent of 17 bananas a day?

Raymond: Ya, apparently I think I have no apology to make. 17 bananas was actually an overstatement. Teachers are actually earning four and a half bananas a day and I think we cannot tolerate and allow that to continue and I think somebody has to say the buck stops here. Because, ultimately, the most important factor and the most important thing is that the world over, and citizens of this particular country must know that when ZANU PF say they liberated this country, it does not mean that they are going to take this country and run it like their own tuck-shop or say that everybody must shut up because they took us from the dungeons. That must not be allowed. We must, as citizens, be allowed to freely express, freely question and be citizens of this particular country.

Violet: And, Mr Tsunga, people are now beginning to retaliate. We saw how the WOZA women, in defiance, were throwing back tear gas canisters that had been thrown at them by the Police and also this past week we saw how Students and the NCA activists and also Opposition activists fighting back and some also assaulted police officers in Harare. Now, has Zimbabwe, has the nation now reached a tipping point?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, you see the problem of the heavy handedness on the part of the police in dealing with peaceful protests by people on legitimate concerns about the economy, about the social-political situation in our country, it has reached a stage where we were beginning to predict that at some point people will not always be sitting and waiting to be attacked. So, I think the way to sum it up, there’s no better way than to look at what Tibaijuka (UN envoy) said in her report when she was commenting about Operation Murambatsvina. She said that the State in Zimbabwe in particular the Police, they need to show respect for the Rule of Law before they can credibly begin to ask citizens to in fact comply with the Rule of Law. So you are actually beginning to see that her prediction that in the absence of the State showing genuine commitment to the Rule of Law then you are going to see a situation where the culture of impunity, the culture of lawlessness, the culture of violence begins to permeates and pervades the whole of society.

Violet: We’ll come back to the issue of the Rule of Law, but, Mr Coltart, what are your thoughts on the unfolding events in Zimbabwe and also what is the mood of the people.

David Coltart : Well Violet we warned about this many years ago, going right the way back to the early 90’s. We said that if the ZANU PF regime refuses to respect fundamental human rights, they refuse to respect the democratic process; the right of people to choose their own government, their leaders through peaceful democratic means, that ultimately, people will lose faith in the democratic process, and that is what we are seeing happening in Zimbabwe. We have had a succession of elections stolen since 2000 and we’ve seen how the regime has responded by imposing oppressive legislation and oppressive policies on the people of Zimbabwe and now the tension is rising. I liken this to a pot on the fire. You’ve got this pot on the fire with ZANU PF stoking the fire all the time through inflation, through corruption, through mismanagement, and instead of allowing the contents of the pot just to bubble and simmer they are actually putting a lid on, and the lid is through this oppressive Police action, through trying to suppress the legitimate rights of people and this has resulted in this massive build up of pressure and tension in the country and it is inevitable that this will explode. If the regime does not allow this pressure to be released through allowing people to vent their emotions and their feelings through legitimate peaceful demonstration, it is inevitable, unfortunately that this will unravel and spin out of control. So, I fear that this tension will increase and that if the Regime does not sit down and genuinely negotiate with civil society, with labour leaders, with all political parties, with the Churches to work a way out of this mess, that Zimbabwe could explode.

Violet: Also you know, the Police defied a High Court order this week, or this weekend rather, and blocked a rally organised by the Tsvangirai MDC and they also disrupted a public meeting organised by your party in Bulawayo. Has Zimbabwe officially become a police state?

David Coltart: Well, what was very worrying about this weekend was the statement made by the Minister of Home Affairs, Kembo Mohadi to Professor Ncube on Friday afternoon that a decision had been taken the previous Tuesday to ban all public meetings that is a very serious development, it means that the Regime has now decided to clamp down on legitimate expressions of discontent and, as I said just now, that is just going to increase tensions. We’ve seen how the Police over the last few years have used force against organisations like the NCA, WOZA, my colleague Raymond Majongwe and many others have been subjected to this abuse. But, never before have we seen a blanket ban like this imposed. So this is a very serious development and I think it’s a sign of increasing paranoia by the regime.

Arnold Tsunga : You see the history of defiance of court orders is a history that associates itself with the present government and there is nothing entirely new in terms of this government agreeing with Court Orders that favour the Ruling Party and being contemptuous and defying all those judgements that are seen as not in the interest of ZANU PF or maybe propping up the Oppositional Forces. So there’s a litany of cases that Zimbabwe Lawyers for Human Rights has been tracking where there’s been defiance of Court orders

It started in the 80’s but I think the most notable one which led to the situation in which we find ourselves now, you know, it started with the Mark Chavanduka and Ray Choto cases where they got orders against the Minister of Defence when they had been arrested by the Military Intelligence who have no policing responsibilities in the country, and then from there you saw Andrew Meldrum, he was kicked out of the country like a dog, you know sent out of the country in violation of a Court order. Then you had the Daily News case where there were various orders that had been given to restore property back to the Daily News owners and there was a Chief Superintendent Madzingo and the Commissioner of Police who defied Court Orders. The list is completely endless, you know the Roy Bennett, Chimanimani; there were numerous Court Orders in respect of the expropriation of his property, the killing, extrajudicial execution of his workers etc.

Violet: And the lawyers for Human Rights actually took some of these cases to the African Commission. What was the outcome?

Arnold Tsunga: You see what the African Commission has done is to safely frown at the flagrant defiance and disregard of Court orders by the Zimbabwean Government. But, they have also come up with recommendations generally around the issues of creating an environment that is conducive to democracy and human rights where they have made a specific recommendation that the Government should abide by the judgements of the Supreme Court and other Courts before they can begin to expect citizens to want to comply with the Court Orders and the Rule of Law. They’ve also made very specific recommendations about the independence of the judiciary; that it needs to be guaranteed in terms of legislative processes and administrative practices. But, I think one of the most telling recommendations that they made is that you need a professional Police force that is not politicised. They made a very specific observation that the current law and order Unit is operating under political instructions and without accountability and that they needed to remove the Youth Militia from policing responsibilities.

Violet: But t hese are just recommendations that are never enforced; that can never be enforced in Zimbabwe, isn’t it?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, the issue of enforcement is one thing, I think in terms of the political acceptance, you know, the findings by an organ that has been set up by the African Heads that Zimbabwe as a State is in violation of the African Charter which is the instrument that the African leaders have said they want to bind themselves in terms of how they practice democracy in their countries, I think it’s a very telling finding that the African Union has made. And then, the defiance of the Government of Zimbabwe on that recommendation is consistent with the defiance of decisions in local Courts. And, it’s now up to the African Heads of State to show political muscle.

Violet: OK but the State continues to defy court orders and get away with it. Now, Mr Majongwe, is this why there are civil wars because people are then forced to take matters into their own hands, to defend themselves?

Raymond Majongwe: Let me start by commenting and looking back at what Coltart was saying, I think I agree with him when he says the issue of the boiling pot and I think I would present it poetically and say ‘no Regime will put and keep its hand on a boiling pot forever’. But, the weakness and the tragedy in Zimbabwe is that we don’t have one pot, we have five hundred pots, some that are simmering, some that are boiling, some that don’t even have firewood or anything beneath them. Because the tragedy here is we have so many organisations doing so many things at the same time and thereby confusing everybody. Because, if we don’t explore this particular fundamental then we would be lying and fooling ourselves. Look at it, when you speak you say NCA, PTUZ, WOZA, The Lawyers for Human Rights, the MDC, that small group there – Why are we making reference to a plethora of all these organisations and not talk of one single powerful movement? Because, people, many of the comrades who are talking and speaking are doing it for commercial purposes, and, if we ignore that particular fundamental then we might not be looking at this particular thing and seeing it’s results. There are so many people who are engaging in this thing for material benefit, and there are people who are praying that the crisis in Zimbabwe goes to eternity.

Violet: Mr Coltart, what are your thoughts on this and also some critics say the objectives are generally too broad. They say for example the ZCTU has in the past planned to march in protest against high levels of taxation and inadequate ARV’s for HIV/AIDS. Now these are all crucial issues but in Zimbabwe today are these objectives achievable and are they not too broad?

David Coltart: Well I think that there’s a general consensus about what solution should be offered to Zimbabwe. I think that there’s a broad consensus in Zimbabwe now that the way out of this crisis is through a new constitution which enjoys support from all parties and that elections must then be held in terms of that new constitution which is supervised by the International Community and endorsed by the International Community and especially SADC. So, I think that, as I say, there’s a broad consensus regarding the goal and a broad consensus regarding ideas on the way out of this mess that we’re in. However, where Raymond Majongwe is correct is that there are so many different groups pursuing their own different means of achieving that end. But I’m not sure that you can ever contain that or change that because ultimately human beings have their own personalities and you get selfish people and ambitious people and I think that in one sense the wide spectrum of organisations that we have constitute quite a headache for the regime.

For example, take the MDC split, many people look at it very negatively and in many ways it has been a negative phenomenon in our recent history, but if you look at this last weekend, had the MDC been united, you would have had the entire leadership up in Harare for example focused on that meeting and the Regime would have been able to focus all it’s resources on that single meeting in Harare. Ironically, because of the split, there was a meeting in Bulawayo on the Saturday and a completely different caste of actors protesting down in Bulawayo on the Saturday and then of course on the Sunday and that must have created a headache for the Regime and the same thing with the different Unions, you’ve got different Teacher’s Unions.

WOZA is a completely separate organisation with a separate leadership, a separate agenda and I think that an absolute headache has been created for the CIO and the Regime as a result of this plethora of different organisations, all single minded in terms of the ultimate goal but pursuing different agendas and different avenues to get to that goal. So I don’t fully agree with Ray Majongwe where he says that you know diversity is a problem. Diversity is a problem if we are pulling against each other but I think that there are increasing signs that people are starting to pull together even in their diversity, like for example the Save Zimbabwe Campaign.

Violet: But do you agree Mr Coltart that workers have been left with no choice because there’s growing frustration with the slow pace that the Opposition is engaging in resolving the crisis?

David Coltart : I can see that, of course, and I certainly agree with Ray when he says that there are people ostensibly who are civil society activists who actually are doing very well out of this crisis. There are people in NGO’s who are paid in salaries that are denominated in hard currency. But not everyone’s in that position, in fact I think that there’s a small clique of people, but your point is absolutely correct that it is the workers who are suffering more than anyone else and the unemployed as well and they have been left out on a limb, but I think that the economic collapse is becoming so intense now that the middle class and even people that considered themselves fairly wealthy are now facing economic destruction and are as a result, being pulled into these campaigns in which the Unions have been the vanguard up until now.

Violet: Let me go back to Raymond Majongwe. Others have said that the other problem is that it’s not just the country’s workforce that is suffering and that there are all these other people like housewives, farm workers, other people that are self-employed. How do you get all these groups involved?

Raymond Majongwe: Ya, apparently the most important thing that really needs to be understood, if you really go back to history; a lot of people dismiss history as nothing; but history should be able to teach us that where people are going to be united, where people are going to rally behind the necessary few things, where people are going to be led by a single leadership in terms of directing operations, you are likely to find out that results come easier and quicker. You look at the South African process, you look at Zimbabwe under Robert Mugabe and Joshua Nkomo, you look at many other African countries. You are really not going to succeed if you’re going to have splinter-ism and so many of these small groups doing a lot of things here and there. Whilst it is correct that people might see the CIO being stretched, but I honestly don’t want to believe that the CIO will not be stretched because there are a group of seven people gathering under a tree singing a song or wanting to do that thing there. Ultimately, the whole thing is that if people want to see real political change, the housewives, the workers in the farms, the people who are suffering with HIV and AIDS, those people who are failing to get transport, the people who are failing to send their children to school, we need to correctly agenda-set.

And, agenda-setting will be correctly done by a group of people who will sit down, come up with the correct credentials in terms of how they are going to build the momentum within the country, because, it’s not going to be good and nice because the ultimate beneficiary of what is happening in the country is ZANU PF and Robert Mugabe. We are going to have a lot of this confusion and the people will continue suffering! I’ll just maybe end this particular submission by saying the more people have these splinter organisations that are going to be fighting and most of all, if you really trace them back, many of the people who are in all these NGO’s were at one point in one organisation in the past.

In 1986, ’87, ’88 many were at one institution, then you come to 1995, ’96, ’97 there is one organisation then the organisation split and these same people still belong to the same organisation because they are still members in the other organisation. So much so that I honestly want to believe that the split between the MDC is not a solution to the crisis. The split in many of these small organisations worsens the situation in the country and ZANU PF becomes the biggest beneficiary. Only until and unless all these organisations come back, discuss, have at least a correct shared vision under a correct leadership. Because, democracy doesn’t mean that everybody must be doing their own thing separately and independently, because if democracy means that then Zimbabwe will be far away from what we are seeking to achieve.

Violet: What about Mr Tsunga can you give us your thoughts on this, some have said that strategies and tactics are not clear because there is no core issue in which people can base the struggle on. Do you agree with this?

Arnold Tsunga: You know, I think generally Zimbabweans have an idea about what they want. They obviously want a democratic society. They believe that a constitution that is arrived at after involvement, you know, genuine involvement of people in terms of process is desired, and that you hold elections that are going to be supervised by the International Community around giving life to a constitution that will have been established with popular people participation. I think, in terms of that being the end-game, there’s absolutely no doubt that there is clarity. But then, the how to get there; which is basically the methodologies and the processes; that’s where, unfortunately, there seems to be disagreement or lack of clarity as to what route we are going to take. And, the issue of diversity, in terms of having many organisations that are involved in the pro-democracy movement, in the human rights movement as well as in the political processes; in the absence of a clear, coherent strategy, yes, there is going to be confusion.

So, on the strategy side, what you need is a method of cohering these organisations if they cannot come under one umbrella organisation. The ideal thing would be for all of them to be participating in one organisation under one umbrella and agitating for change as one. But if, for some reason, the diversity or the disagreements are such that it’s not going to be possible to do that, then you need to be moving towards a strategy of coherence where the different groups are interdependently working but in a coherent manner, which then emphasises what David Coltart was talking about, that you have a number of spontaneous activities in many parts of the country. It stretches the Police, it stretches the CIO, it stretches the justice delivery system, it’s becomes very expensive for the dictatorship and that’s one way in which you can actually continue knocking on the pillars that support dictatorship.

Violet : And Majongwe, would you agree that as Arnold Tsunga has just said and David Coltart, that strikes and CBD protests could be just merely tactics and if so, how do all these things connect and feed into a broader strategy that encompasses the concerns of the general population

Raymond Majongwe: Ya, I think it is there that I differ with a lot of people. If you are going to have the Teachers going on strike in one week, then the doctors and the nurses in the other week then the farm workers in the other week, then so and so in the other week, I honestly want to believe that it is there that we will fail because I am convinced that a wholesale approach when all of us come together will really be the best in terms of having people to say – now we are going to be doing this. But nonetheless I honestly am convinced that maybe the people in this country haven’t come to a point where they necessarily agree because ultimately you are going to find out that so many small things happening in different places will obviously stretch the people who are then following these things up. But, in terms of the strategy, in terms of the ultimate political goal and vision, nothing changes, because I go to prison today, so and so goes to prison the next day. Because ultimately if you really look at it this country does not have political prisoners anyway. People still are talking about POSA and AIPPA, laws that we have all seen that they are discredited. If we really say we want to liberate this country, POSA and AIPPA are nothing but just laws, and people must ignore them. People must be prepared to challenge the system and say this is what we believe in even if it means death, even if it means going to prison. But then the people that are here are not ready to do that!

Violet Gonda: Mr Coltart?

David Coltart: Violet Ya I did want to chip in there. I think that what Ray is saying is the ideal. Look, obviously the ideal is that you get a co-ordinated strategy, you get all these different groups working together with agreements and strategy and tactics. But I think that in very few struggles throughout the world has that happened. I think that our best and perhaps closest example is what happened in South Africa in the struggle against apartheid, there were many different political organisations. There was the ANC, the PAC, the IFP; there were civic organisations, the Legal Resources Centre, Black Sash and the Churches, a wide variety of organisations with different agendas. But, ultimately, what changed things was when they agreed to work under the UDF and you had an inspirational figure who had no political ambitions in the form of Desmond Tutu who provided leadership along with other people – brought all these disparate organisations together. But, even then, they didn’t manage to co-ordinate things perfectly but there was a broad mass of organisations with a single goal in mind, the removal of apartheid.

And, ultimately, it worked and I think that we are getting to a similar stage in Zimbabwe and whilst I understand Ray’s ideal, I just want to encourage him and other Zimbabweans. I think that what we’re seeing in Zimbabwe, certainly in the last few weeks, is resistance and defiance taking on a life of its own. And I’m no longer worried because I see so many different organisations now realising that unless there is fundamental change in this country which is only going to come through a new constitution, through a new order, life will just get tougher and tougher. And, what we desperately need now is an organisation like the UDF in South Africa which we may find in the Save Zimbabwe organisation; we may find in the Christian Alliance a neutral body, a body of men and women who have no political ambition themselves, who act to coalesce all these different organisations, to give it some structure, to give it coherence and then I think you will see this process of defiance and resistance gather momentum.

Violet Gonda: Be sure not to miss this crucial and frank debate next week

Part Two: Broadcast on 27 February 2007

On the programme ‘Hot Seat’ Journalist Violet Gonda concludes her two part tele-conference with human rights campaigner Raymond Majongwe and Lawyers Arnold Tsunga and David Coltart.

Violet Gonda: Welcome to the final segment of the tele-conference with Arnold Tsunga, Director of the Zimbabwe Lawyers for Human Rights, Raymond Majongwe, Secretary General of the radical Progressive Teachers Union of Zimbabwe and David Coltart, a legal expert and Member of Parliament for the Mutambara MDC. We continue to discuss the growing discontent in Zimbabwe that has seen students, university lecturers, teachers, nurses and doctors go on strike. The situation on the ground is still very tense because of the hyper-inflationary environment and the ban on political meetings by the regime. In this segment I started by asking Arnold Tsunga how the striking groups can keep the momentum.

Arnold Tsunga: I think there are a number of factors that have resulted in Zimbabweans behaving in the way they are now and it goes back to what David Coltart said earlier on that the current state of collective expression is merely a manifestation of what has been brewing over the years. If you look at the intersection between the socio economic conditions and the political processes that are taking place right now, you are actually beginning to see that we have reached a stage, I think, where the economic and social conditions are going to drive and determine the political processes. Before, maybe last year or the year before you had a situation where because the economy seemed to have been performing, you know, when the rule of law situation was thrown out of the window – you had a situation where politicians were driving the economic processes, the social processes. But, now there has been a reversal where now that the work force has been largely liquidated and people thrust into chronic poverty and you now have the middle class virtually extinguished and reduced into an environment also of chronic poverty; the highest inflation. You are beginning to see a situation where it’s now a question of survival. It’s no longer a question, people are not exactly conscious that they are involved in a political process; some of them are simply striking or getting engaged because they don’t have food at home. And, I think, that’s a very good intersection you know, between civil and political rights as well as economic – social rights in our country.

Violet: And Mr Majongwe, still on the same issue. You know teachers are demanding wages in line with the Poverty Datum Line and generally most sectors are asking for salary increments, but my question to you is would it be enough for the government to give you more money considering the inflationary environment?

Raymond Majongwe: Ya, I think the most important thing here is, are we, as citizens, supposed to have a decent life? If we agree and say ‘yes’, then we shouldn’t question whether it’s going to be inflationary, whether it’s going to exacerbate the situation, because the question that many of the teachers then ask me and ask those in leadership is ‘are we responsible for what is happening now.’ Can we therefore forgo a better living because we want to fight an army that we didn’t create? I think the short answer that I would give you is that we cannot be subjected to poverty in a country that we know has milk and honey as we have obviously had and we have seen. We cannot allow just a selected number of people to enjoy on our behalf. We are simply making a very clear statement that if the government is going to make a position that say the Poverty Datum Line stands at Z$566 000 then why should somebody who went to Teachers College and spent three years there, has been teaching for 17 years, be paid a salary that will allow that person fail to sustain and make sure that their families live normally. How can somebody really go to work and earn a salary that will enable them to buy four bananas a day? That’s unacceptable. So we are basically asking for the bare minimum, the PDL of $566 000 and in consulting the University of Zimbabwe Lecturers we were told that it has even left Z$566 000, it’s now around Z$642 000 which means we are even going to be changing the figures very soon.

Violet: But, do you agree that unless you know the concerned groups realise the need for a new constitution and fundamental reforms there won’t be any long lasting change because Mugabe can just print more money?

Raymond Majongwe : Ya, ultimately nobody doubts that. We are one of the few organisations in the country that even went to the MDC and said you cannot go into an election as long as the constitution still stands. I personally went into a public meeting with Morgan Tsvangirai and said in very clear and certain terms that you cannot engage ZANU PF in an election which you are going to lose anyway. I’m really surprised that the MDC; both MDCs; went and participated in the Chiredzi South by-election. And you then say to yourself ‘do these people really know what they are trying to fight, what were they going to benefit from this particular by-election when all these people are suffering? What exactly is going to be happening if people are going to be engaging in the Senate elections when the people are suffering because ultimately as far as the constitution remains the one that was smuggled into this country then the poverty and its perpetuation will remain the stark reality; people will continue suffering.

Violet: Mr Coltart, you have argued in the past that the Opposition must continue to participate in elections and Parliament also, but we have seen how ZANU PF took the Chiredzi South by-election because it controls the electoral process and how it controls Parliament. Do you ever sit down as the Opposition to analyse, to see if you have made any meaningful contribution to your overall goal?

David Coltart: Well, I still believe, surprisingly enough, that we have to participate in elections. I agree with Ray completely that there’s absolutely no prospect of the Opposition ever winning power through the electoral process because ZANU, as demonstrated this past weekend, are simply not going to allow that to happen. But, it comes back to the point of using every possible means to challenge and expose the regime. Had we not participated in the election in 2000 and exposed the violent side of ZANU PF, the pressure that has been brought to bear on ZANU PF by the international community would never have happened. The same applies even to this recent by-election in Chiredzi. Had we not participated ZANU would have just won that by-election, we would never have been able to show how food has been used as a political weapon down in Chiredzi South as it was. And, all of these things are building blocks, and it’s taken a long, long time, far too long for us to expose the real ZANU PF. But bear in mind that ZANU PF was viewed primarily by African states primarily as a liberating Party, as a democratic Party, as a Party that offered hope not just for the people of Zimbabwe, but for the whole of Africa. Now those of us down in Matabeleland who saw the real nature of ZANU PF between 1982 and 1987 knew that this was a Party that offered no hope for Zimbabwe but it’s taken a long, long time, through elections, through civic actions, through strikes, to expose the true nature of this Regime. And, that battle isn’t over, but, I still believe that we’ve got to use every single means at our disposal that includes participating in Parliament, it includes challenging the Courts.

Violet: But Mr Coltart, you know you have been challenging the elections for the past seven years and its there on the record that the electoral process is flawed in Zimbabwe . What else can you gain from participating in elections or Parliament right now when Mugabe will never allow free and fair elections?

David Coltart: Well, let me stress one thing at the outset in answer to this. I have not argued, and none of my colleagues have argued that the electoral process is the only way or even the main way to challenge this Regime. All that we’ve said is that it’s one of several means and that we’ve got to use every single means. We’ve got to use civic action, we’ve got to use strikes, we’ve got to use international pressure, we’ve got to challenge through the courts, we’ve got to be in Parliament, we’ve got to participate in elections. So, it’s wrong to say that any of us have said this is the be all and end all of the struggle, it certainly isn’t, it is one small part. But, let me answer your question. We have to continue to challenge ZANU PF because ZANU PF puts out that it is the Ruling Party; that it is the Party that continues to enjoy the majority support from the people. And we also need to bear in mind that we are dealing with a very jaded International Community. An International Community that’s been sucked into Iraq and Afghanistan and a whole range of other international crisis and it’s losing patience and many countries, we’ve seen with France and Portugal and other countries, are looking for any excuse to reintegrate ZANU PF into the International Community. And one of the ways of making sure that ZANU PF remains a pariah is by showing that it lacks legitimacy, that it does not enjoy the support of the majority of people, and we do that through the electoral process

Violet: And Mr Tsunga, your thoughts on this? Should the MDC continue to participate in a flawed electoral process and also participate in Parliament?

Arnold Tsunga : Ya, I think participating in Parliament, there shouldn’t be a big problem because, at the time of participating in elections, there was absolutely no questioning about the correctness of the MDC participating in elections. But I think post those elections there has been a credible concern on the part of a significant number of Zimbabweans whether continued participation is a correct thing to do or not on the part of the MDC in the absence of the opening up of the democratic space that is necessary for effective civic participation in the affairs of the nation. So, I think the concerns on whether continued participation in fact does not give greater legitimacy to processes that we view as fatally flawed. I think it’s a genuine concern and any action on the part of the political players to continue giving an impression that they are giving Zimbabweans an opportunity to choose when quite clearly the playing field is such that the Zimbabwean’s right to effective civic participation in the national affairs is a mirage in the present circumstances. I think it introduces a little bit of scrutiny on the political players in terms of their genuineness to continue participating. So, speaking as a citizen, I really think there is a need to really explore whether we are increasing the course of oppression this way or we are actually giving ZANU PF the moral high ground to say the Opposition have got sour grapes because they have lost elections and therefore they now want to go on to the streets because simply because they cannot get into power through legitimate means. So I really think it’s an area that the Political Parties need to look at again.

Raymond Majongwe : I just wanted to say that many Zimbabweans, and I’m talking of the people who are on the street, they now don’t understand why the MDC has been going to Parliament. For instance, all these other laws were passed when the MDC was there. And, the question that they now ask is ‘would it have made any difference, wouldn’t we have made more gains if ZANU PF was alone in Parliament and the momentum would have increased on the streets and the people outside Parliament’. Because, now many people see the Parliamentarians on television, because I’m taking about the layman. The person who sees MDC Parliamentarians participating in flawed processes, also going out of the country on state sanctioned visits, visiting the ZBC, we see them on television, visiting the GMB, we see them on television. Now it appears as if the MDC is now part of the gravy train and these are the people who matter; these are the people who vote. Hence the apathy that you are going to find, the people are going to say ‘after all the MDC and ZANU PF are enjoying there in Parliament’. So, ultimately, I am convinced if the MDC really wants to salvage anything then they must pack their bags out of that Parliament, go back to the people and say ‘the mandate that you gave us, we have benefited nothing from it’. Then obviously people are going to say ‘yes, let’s do this together’.

Plus the other thing that I would obviously have wanted maybe Mr Coltart to respond to is the people are saying ‘is it true that the split that exists now within the two MDCs is a ZANU PF sponsored project?’ Because, how obviously are you going to have the MDC fielding the candidates where the other MDC has also fielded the other? And then they continue using the name of the MDC; what is the ultimate agenda and attention of having two MDCs? And many of the people ask ‘do you really think ZANU PF under Robert Mugabe will allow another ZANU PF to be formed under any other leader?’

Violet: Mr Coltart are you able to respond to that, the issue of splitting the vote and the ZANU PF connection?

David Coltart : Oh absolutely Violet, let me respond to the splitting of the vote. I think everyone in their right mind would acknowledge that the current situation prevailing in Zimbabwe where you have all this confusion created by two MDCs is to put it mildly, unsatisfactory, and, the sooner both factions agree on either re-unification or some form of alliance or to agree to disagree and have different names, the sooner that happens the better. Because, there’s no doubt the split plays into the hands of ZANU PF and I don’t think that the rationally minded people in either side of this divide; in either faction; are happy about the situation. The sooner that we can resolve that the better and, as you know, there are talks taking place, there’ve been very positive talks taking place in the course of the last few months and I hope that shortly with goodwill shown by both sides we can resolve this and as I say, either re-unite these two factions or agree to a functional coalition so that we remove that confusion. Let me also say, in response to Ray, I have no doubt that ZANU PF and the CIO have been involved in this division and that they have fuelled it, that they have infiltrated both factions and that there are people in both factions who are working as hard as they can against any form of re-unification or coalition. That would be a natural thing for a fascist organisation like ZANU PF to do and we need to be vigilant and constantly identify those people who are working against this common goal and working to divide.

But let me conclude briefly by coming back to his first point; that is Ray’s first point; about participation in Parliament. I agree with him that Parliament has not achieved what we hoped it would achieve in 2000, that a range of oppressive legislation has been passed despite the fact that many of us have argued valiantly in Parliament until 4.00am in the morning to oppose it. But, I still believe, and I come back to the point I made just now, that if you don’t use every means; that is every peaceful non-violent means at your disposal, you create a much greater possibility of this country degenerating into violence, degenerating into a coup or something like that. And, that cannot be in this country’s best interest. And so, whilst yes, I agree with Ray when he questions the effectiveness of being in Parliament, I think one has to say that our presence in Parliament has in many respects furthered the struggle, has exposed the true nature of this regime. If you just look, for example, at what is happening with the Parliamentary Committees in Parliament at present with the revelations coming out about ZISCO and ZUPCO and other things; this Contempt Committee which has now been set up regarding Obert Mpofu. They don’t change things overnight but they undermine the Regime and our participation in there assists in that undermining.

Violet : But, let me just go back to the issue of the talks, how long will these talks last or take because doesn’t the MDC risk being overtaken by events? We’ve seen how the workers have been on strike for the last few weeks, Doctors have been on strike since December, the Teachers for the last three weeks and the MDC are still debating about talking. How long will this take?

David Coltart: Violet I think that your criticism is entirely valid, these talks have been going on for far too long. They’ve gone on in fits and starts and quite frankly we need to progress them. I don’t personally understand, at this juncture, why there has been a delay, the last talks took place in late November and there’s now been a delay of some two months and it’s up to the leadership in both factions to move these talks along. But, just to come to your other point, of course there is a danger that the politicians are going to be overtaken by events but as a patriot, rather than a politician, I say ‘so be it’. If there are other groups that are more active such as WOZA or the NCA or the Trade Union Movement, who get the job done, well good luck to them. Because ultimately, if we are patriots; if we are interested in the future of Zimbabwe and a democratic Zimbabwe then our future doesn’t necessarily reside in the MDC, either faction of it, coming to power. Our future resides in us pressurising this Regime into agreeing to a new constitution, a new democratic constitution, democratic institutions, fresh elections that are genuinely free and fair, and ultimately that will usher in a new democratic era. And, that democratic era may see a country ruled by one faction of the MDC or a united MDC or a coalition of the MDC or perhaps new Political Parties. But, that isn’t what should concern us. What should concern us is the ultimate goal of bringing democracy to Zimbabwe

Violet: And before we go and before I get your final thoughts, I just wanted to go back to the issue of the Rule of Law, and this is a question for Arnold Tsunga. We talked about how the Police continue to defy Court Orders. What recourse to assistance can victims get if they can’t get it from the Courts and also if they can’t get protection from the Police who have become their tormentors?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, you see, it comes back to the issue that the Rule of Law, the justice delivery process takes place within a system of governance, and that’s where there’s been a problem. We’ve had a systemic collapse in this system of government that we are running as a country and you would not expect the justice delivery system, as a sub-system within this main system, to function properly in the absence of political will, in the absence of separation of powers. And, once you talk about separation of powers you are going back to democracy. So, there’s a direct link between absence of democracy and this flagrant disregard of Court Orders by the police. And, in fact, not just disregard of Court Orders, but a situation where the Police force has now been viewed by an African Union organ as an extension of a Political Party, which means they are not carrying out their policing duties, they are merely exercising a political function to prop up ZANU PF at the expense of other parties. So this goes to democracy; this goes to a situation where you cannot dissociate or extricate the Rule of Law situation from the greater democratisation project.

Violet: So what can people do? This is a question I had asked Raymond Majongwe at the beginning of this teleconference that is this why there are civil wars because people are then forced to take matters into their own hands.

Arnold Tsunga : Ya, when I say that you cannot distinguish the Rule of Law from the greater democratisation process, what I’m simply saying is that which means the only way in which Zimbabweans will be able to get a return to the Rule of Law, in the absence of political will on the part of ZANU PF, is to then go through processes where they begin to demand their democratic space back. And, this is what has been manifesting itself in terms of the strikes that have been taking place from the beginning of the year up to now where you are beginning to see people engaging collectively in processes where they are claiming back their democracy, claiming back their rights from what they perceive to be a dictatorship environment.

Violet: And Raymond Majongwe, a final word before we go?

Raymond Majongwe : Ya, I think ultimately whether people are going to have Court Orders in their favour, people are going to have a lot of these High Court positions which say ‘proceed and do that’ and there’s no will to walk the talk, there’s no will to stand and face the violence and brutality. Because, this is Africa . I think this is the lesson that many of our comrades need to understand. This is Africa , and democracy comes to Africans in a very hard way! It’s unfortunate, that’s not what I wish to achieve or wish to experience, but, if people are going to say ‘ya, we have now achieved our goals’; people have to be prepared to have both the blood and the iron concept into play. I am convinced that while we are going to stand up and say ‘we had an Order that allowed people to proceed with this particular meeting, there is this Order to proceed with this particular process’, and the Police are the going to be given the political force to say ‘make sure this doesn’t happen’, and they proceed to do it and the people say ‘ah, what else can we do’, then I think we are obviously going to be losing. We need a process, a group of people in institutions that will stand and say ‘if it means that we are really not going to be listened to, then we are going to take this other defiance route’. And, I will tell you, no other means will bring results besides confronting processes and institutions of injustice.

Violet: Mr Coltart?

David Coltart: Well I beg to differ in a certain respect with Ray and let me stress that I respect you Ray as a great human rights campaigner, but I think the trouble about using the language of confrontation unqualified is dangerous. I differ when you say that ‘this is Africa’, that somehow Africans are different and that one can achieve a Velvet Revolution in Ukraine but that’s impossible in Africa . I don’t think that even our recent history bears that out. I think that in the late 1980’s in South Africa people thought that bloodshed would be the only way of bringing an end to Apartheid. But, that’s not what happened. As we know, there was a miraculous transfer, transition to democracy and the same happened in Ghana under Jerry Rawlings, there was a relatively peaceful transition. And I believe that’s what we still have to strive for. I agree that there needs to be confrontation but I believe very strongly that it needs to be non-violent confrontation and that even if the Police are going to defy Court Orders, we must still go to the Courts and that we must still use every single non-violent means at our disposable. But, we’ve got to be brave. Ray spoke earlier about unjust laws, well, I believe that unjust laws are there to be defied. That was the principle enunciated by Martin Luther King and Mahatma Gandhi and I don’t think we should be any different. But that takes leadership, it takes bold courageous leadership and we now need people like Morgan Tsvangirai, Arthur Mutambara, Ray Majongwe, Pius Ncube, Ray Motsi – the Christian Alliance leaders; all of our leaders throughout the country, Jenni Williams and her brave women, to lead us but to be committed to using non-violent means of confrontation. Only that way will we guarantee a reasonable transition and a secure future for our children and our grandchildren.

Violet: And Arnold Tsunga?

Arnold Tsunga: Ya, you know what I was thinking as a way of ending is that it might be an idea to quote what the President (Mugabe) said when the was confronted with the situation where he had to either comply or defy in terms of the State complying or defying with a Court Order.

Violet : Where was he saying this? Just a reminder?

Arnold Tsunga : It’s cited if you look at some of the Zimbabwe Human Rights Forum reports, I think when we were looking at the Abuja agreement and the Commonwealth Principles, whether Zimbabwe had complied or disregarded the Abuja agreement, there is an analysis which was done by the Zimbabwe Human Rights Forum, and they cited the President in that document.

He said: “the Government will respect judgements where the judgements are true judgements, and, we do not expect Judges will use subjectivity in interpreting the Law. We expect Judges to be objective, we may not understand them in some cases, but when a Judge sits alone in his house or with his wife and says this one is guilty of contempt, that judgement should never be obeyed. I’m not saying this because we would want to defy Judges, in fact, we have increased their salaries recently. We want them to be happy, but, if they are not objective don’t blame us when we defy them”.

So, you can see the direction where the Police get their attitude to Court Orders is coming from. It’s coming from the Chief Executive Officer of this country. And, I think this type of culture is not a culture that supports democracy, that supports the Rule of Law, and, we need to deal with it very decisively. And, maybe just to end, you know the Judge President, when she was opening the High Court this year – Justice Makarau – she said that the Judiciary is under appreciated in our country and she was referring to things like this.

Violet: Thank you very much Arnold Tsunga, Raymond Majongwe and David Coltart.

All: Goodnight.

Audio interview can be heard on SW Radio Africa’s Hot Seat programme (Tues 27 February 2007). Comments and feedback can be emailed to violet@swradioafrica.com