SW RadioAfrica
24th November 2010
Part One of Question Time, where SW Radio Africa journalist Lance Guma speaks to the Minister of Education, Sport, Arts and Culture, Senator David Coltart (pictured). Questions from the listeners centred on what his Ministry is doing to stop the harassment of teachers by ZANU PF youth militia, the alleged incompetence of the exam council ZIMSEC, incentives for teachers and his position on targeted sanctions, especially the international isolation of the cricket team.
Interview broadcast 24 November 2010
Lance Guma: Good evening Zimbabwe and thank you for joining us on our Question Time. Our guest this week is the minister of Education, Sport, Arts and Culture Senator David Coltart. Senator, thank you for joining us.
David Coltart: Thanks Lance, good evening to you.
Guma: Now obviously you are in South Africa, can we just start off the programme by just letting people know what you are doing there?
Coltart: Yes Lance, one of the projects that I’ve started on is a thorough reform of Zimbabwe’s curriculum and the Curriculum Development Unit, which is located next to the university in Mount Pleasant in Harare, has degenerated. It has got equipment which is antiquated, most of it is over 20 years old and I’m down in South Africa meeting with Apple to see whether we can’t persuade Apple to come in and provide us with new technology which will form the technological basis for the redevelopment of our curriculum. So I’ve got a meeting all day tomorrow with Apple in South Africa for that purpose.
Guma: OK, well let’s hope that goes on well. I suppose we can start off with a question coming from Abe Nyoka who wants to know if it is true that kids are still being turned away from school for not wearing uniforms and if so, what is the Ministry doing about that?
Coltart: Lance I must admit this is the first time that I have heard this – that children are being turned away for not wearing uniforms. The government policy, certainly in government schools is obviously we have a uniform policy, we would like children to wear uniforms but we understand that in these difficult economic circumstances, there needs to be a bit of flexibility, so I will be surprised if children, especially orphans or vulnerable children, are actually being turned away.
It may be that this has happened in a private school or a mission school over which we don’t exercise the same amount of authority. But the policy is yes, we have a uniform policy, as far as possible it must be respected but no child should be turned away because through poverty they have been unable to comply with the uniform.
Guma: So are you saying it’s optional – the wearing of school uniforms is optional for all schools that are run by the government?
Coltart: No, it’s not optional. We expect children to, as far as possible, wear the uniform for the school. We need to try and maintain standards as best we can, but where through poverty, an orphan or a vulnerable child simply does not have the means to get a uniform then that child should not be excluded.
But obviously we can’t have a situation of children from wealthy parents just deciding to arrive at school in jeans – that would lead to a total breakdown of the policy – but where, as I say, through poverty, through force of economic circumstances children can’t comply, then headmasters know that they have to be flexible.
Guma: Isn’t that a bit of a grey area though? How do they prove and what mechanism is in place to separate those who are genuinely suffering poverty and those who are not?
Coltart: Lance it is a grey area and we rely on the headmasters to exercise discretion. They tend to know the background of children, the homes they come from. Obviously if a child pitches up carrying an iPod and in jeans there’s going to be very little sympathy but if a child is known to come from an impoverished family, well then the discretion will be exercised in their favour.
Guma: The next question comes from a listener in Hurungwe who wants to know what is being done about the constant leakage of exam papers by ZIMSEC (Zimbabwe Schools Examination Council), he wants to know if anything can be done to improve the competence of that council seeing there’s been a catalogue of blunders and they are failing to achieve even the basics?
Coltart: Well let me challenge that statement right at the outset – to say that there’s been a catalogue of blunders and, I forget the precise wording but, numerous leakages. That may have been the case several years ago. This year for the writing of the ‘O’ level and ‘A’ level and Grade Seven examinations at the end of the year in October, November, there was one break-in that occurred in Masvingo. It was done by a criminal element who broke into a school, broke the safe and stole the examination papers.
That was not ZIMSEC’s fault, ZIMSEC in my view cannot be blamed for that and so I don’t believe there has in fact been a catalogue of blunders. I think in fact that ZIMSEC’s performance and delivery has improved beyond all recognition in the last two years. It is delivering papers on time, the examinations are starting on time, they are being marked on time and the results are being delivered on time.
This was one very unfortunate event which as I say was not the fault of ZIMSEC, in fact was not even the fault of the school. It’s impossible for us to secure all 8000 schools in the country and ensure that every single one of them cannot be broken in by thieves. So I’m very encouraged by the improvement in ZIMSEC. I don’t for a moment say that it’s perfect, Lance, we’ve got a lot of work to do to restore the public’s confidence in ZIMSEC but I think it’s, as I say, it’s improved beyond all recognition in the last two years.
Guma: In November this year we did a story about how seven schools in Rushinga had closed after teachers there fled ZANU PF threats. ZANU PF youths are reported to have wanted to punish them for contributing to the constitutional outreach exercise which ended in October. Now ironically the Rushinga Member of Parliament, the deputy Education Minister Lazarus Dokora who is your deputy from ZANU PF, is believed to have a close relationship with these youths in the local community.
So when we advertised that we were having you on the programme, a teacher at one of the schools, asked us to ask you what is being done to stop the harassment of teachers by these militia youths and why the deputy Education minister of all people can actively encourage such harassment of teachers in his constituency?
Coltart: OK Lance, that’s a good penetrating question. Let me just clarify a couple of things: I’m not aware of seven schools having been affected in Rushinga. I’m aware of one school where six teachers have been threatened and suspended. That case has been brought to me by the Progressive Teachers Union of Zimbabwe and I’ve acted in the last week in support of those teachers.
They wrote to me personally to say that they had been intimidated, that they felt worried about going back to that particular school and I have authorised their transfer, just last week to ensure that they are kept safe and that they can transfer to new schools so that they can continue their teaching careers.
Regarding the allegation against the deputy minister – obviously that is a press report. I have not received any substantiated reports in that regard and quite frankly I can’t rely on press speculation and hearsay. I have not received any affidavit evidence, in fact in the case that these six teachers brought, these six teachers who were affected in Rushinga, they mentioned nothing about the deputy minister.
Obviously if I get credible evidence that the deputy minister or any other member of the Ministry of Education is involved in intimidating teachers, well then that will be viewed in a very serious light and I will take the necessary measures but I simply can’t comment on mere speculation.
Let me just end this question by saying that I’ve given very clear directions in the last year that schools are not to be used for partisan political activity. I have banned war veterans and militia and indeed members of any political party from using schools for political ends.
Schools are meant to be educational institutions, there needs to be security for children and teachers and it’s simply unacceptable that teachers or children for that matter should be subjected to political intimidation or threats of any kind.
I’m also working on a comprehensive review of the education regulations and when these are finally published it’s going to be made very clear that schools are not to be used for partisan political activity and I hope that we can even attach some criminal sanctions to ensure that any people who breach that policy will then incur the wrath of the law.
Guma: We move on to Tawanda Mhuriro – he wants to know what will happen after parents’ incentives for teachers are banned, will teachers be content with their base salaries and what’s in place to avoid the resultant chaos?
Coltart: Lance the incentives issue has been one of the most vexing problems that I have faced since becoming minister in February 2009. You will recall, when we came into government the teaching profession was in a state of chaos. 20000 teachers left the profession during 2007 and 2008 and even when the inclusive government started, teachers were only paid an allowance of 100 US dollars which is not befitting their status as teachers and is an unviable salary.
And whilst their salaries have gone up somewhat most teachers simply cannot come out on what they’re paid and the amount the teachers are paid in Zimbabwe is way below what they can expect to be paid in, certainly private schools, in mission schools and indeed in schools in South Africa and Botswana and even in some schools in Mozambique, Malawi and Zambia.
But the problem I faced was that the Minister of Finance, Minister Biti simply did not have sufficient money to pay teachers a viable salary. The policy of incentives had been introduced prior to me coming in as minister and I decided, in consultation with the trade unions, to continue allowing incentives to be raised from parents to ensure that there were these top-ups for teachers.
It has been unsatisfactory, I don’t like the policy, I would like to end it as soon as possible. It has caused tension between teachers and parents, it has even caused tension between rural teachers and urban-based teachers because of the discrepancies. Rural parents tend to have less capacity to pay incentives than urban parents and because of all of these problems it’s a policy that should have a short life.
It needs to be ended as soon as possible but it can only be ended when I can be assured that teachers will remain at their posts and will remain motivated to teach children. We simply cannot afford to revert to the situation that prevailed in 2007 and 2008 in which teachers went out of the profession in droves and that seriously undermined the entire education system.
I have lobbied as hard as I can, Minister Biti is very sympathetic, he understands the need to ensure that teachers are paid a viable salary but of course his ability to do that is constrained by the economy, by the state of the economy but the moment we can start paying teachers a viable wage I will move to end incentives but, I stress, only once I know that teachers will be paid a reasonable salary.
Guma: OK now as Sports Minister, your position on cricket has been very clear and you have been calling for Zimbabwe’s international isolation to end. Now Samson in Mutare wants to know whether you still stand by this position given the apparent collapse of the coalition government. He says the isolation was meant to be a pressure point and by seeking to have it removed, are you not doing ZANU PF’s work for them?
Coltart: Lance, my view on sanctions is as follows: I, there’re two main arguments – the first is that we signed up to the GPA and included in the GPA was an undertaking that we would move to lift sanctions. ZANU PF has not honoured the GPA. They have not put the governors in place, they have breached the GPA in a variety of different ways but quite frankly, we, in my view, need to honour our side of the bargain. That’s the first argument.
The second argument and it touches on the first because I’m sure many people will say well you’re simply being naïve to think that ZANU are ever going to honour their side of the bargain and that’s why the second argument is vitally important and it’s this – I believe ironically that sanctions actually benefit ZANU PF more than anyone else at present.
We’ve had these targeted sanctions in place since 2001 – we need to ask ourselves the question – have they affected the ZANU PF hierarchy at all? Perhaps it has prevented them from shopping at Harrods but it has not stopped them from abusing the rule of law, it has not stopped them from looting the country.
You’ve just got to go to Borrowdale to see the massive mansions that have been built by the ZANU PF hierarchy in the last decade and you will see that the financial targeted sanctions have not affected them one iota and the irony is that they now use sanctions as a pretext, as an excuse not to implement other aspects of the GPA such as the swearing in of governors and the like.
And my view is that we need to actually deflate ZANU PF, remove this excuse because it is not, it is simply a fiction, it is an illusion if we think that these targeted sanctions are having any, either physical or psychological impact on ZANU PF.
I think that they are cynically using the continuation of targeted sanctions as an excuse and we need to remove that excuse so that they are left naked and the region and the rest of the world can see in fact who is now to blame for the non-implementation of the Global Political Agreement.
Guma: But the argument of course used to counter that is that you remove that excuse, ZANU PF will find another excuse and history has shown us that at different political periods they have used different excuses for different things.
Coltart: Oh I have no doubt that they will try and use a different excuse but if you look at their rhetoric and their propaganda the last year, two years, they have been solely focussed on sanctions, sanctions, sanctions. It has been their mantra day in, day out. It’s very difficult to change that mantra if that excuse is lifted.
But then I come back to the other argument Lance, we have to seriously ask ourselves the question what effect have the sanctions had? Even if they do move on to some other excuse, what leverage have they in fact had on ZANU PF? Perhaps they’ve stopped one or two of them from travelling to Harrods but that is the only impact that I see that targeted sanctions have had on ZANU PF.
Guma: OK we just have to quickly round up the first part of this interview. I’ll just throw in one more question and if you can just answer briefly – when ZANU PF are asking to have these sanctions removed, and this is one question posed by our listeners, who do they want to remove them because does the MDC really have the power to have the sanctions removed?
Coltart: Well of course we don’t and in fact that’s been illustrated very clearly in my own ministry. As you know, as Minister of Sport I’ve been to Australia, New Zealand and Britain this year and in every country I’ve called for these targeted measures to be removed.
I as you know, I tried to encourage the Scottish cricket team to come out and the British government simply disregarded what I had to say and it’s a clear illustration of the fact that with all the good faith in the world there’s a limit to what the MDC can do in the removal of these sanctions.
Guma: So what does ZANU PF want you to do? What does ZANU PF want you to do if you have no power to remove them?
Coltart: Well exactly and that is why this excuse that they give for not implementing other aspects of the GPA must be removed.
Guma: OK we have to conclude Part One of the interview with the Minister of Education, Sport, Arts and Culture. We received quite a huge response from listeners in Zimbabwe and clearly I hope Senator you’ll join us next week to conclude some of the questions that hundreds of Zimbabweans have been asking. Many thanks for joining us this week.
Coltart: Thank you Lance.